Flames of War & Napoleonic Variant

Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Exeter UK

I've spent a while trawling through the old postings and a few minutes talking tothe Warchiefs at the Penarth show this last weekend, and I'm confused about a few things.

Do we want a new set of Napoleonic rules? Do we want them based on FoW? Are we doing something or just waiting for Battlefront to do it for us?

The great thing about FoW is that it works for a lot of people. The first set of WWII rules to do so for a while in our club. Napoleonics has always suffered the same way which was why I thought about adapting FoW. But what I would like to do is to use all the elements that FoW has and apply them. Not just take some and then apply a whole load of factors. FoW can be played with a small crib sheet and an OOB sheet for your stats - that's what I want (not pages of charts as in other rulesets).

So, what elements of FoW can be reused?

Skill - Conscript, Trained, Veteran - that works for me (plus the options in some armies such as Romanian Peasant Army or Italian Six Million Bayonets)

Motivation - Reluctant, Confident, Fearless - yup, works as well. Now we can pidgeon hole every troop type and national characteristic easily.

Movement - many variations here, rough ground, bogging checks, visibility etc - I can work with those

Shooting - ROF, FP, Bulletproof cover etc (saving throws I'm a little worried about but could easily be drawn to)

Assault - Lovely mechanisms

Artillery - ranging in and the template for bombardments, regimental support guns, rockets - all catered for.

There's very little that can't be ported straight into the period (or any otehr period for that matter)

Maybe that's why I'm surprised that this isn't a more active forum - or maybe everyone else has made their modifications and is happily playing with them and doesn't think it necessary to share?

Or maybe BF will come along and surprise me!

Marc

Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Cheltenham

With the Warchief version we looked at what could be used from the exisiting book.

Skill, Motivation, Shooting and Combat were all easily encorporated but with a few changes such as re wording Reluctant with Unsteady to fit in with the period.

Alot fo our rules came from other systems and changes we'd think would balance out exisitant Napo rules and FoW varient so alot of rules are based on Warmaster with FoW so Movement and Combat were used here as we felt the WW2 combat was far to deadly in it's existant format for this period.

Bombardments were just cut out for simplicity and the lack of this style of shooting during the period. Not much effective long range HE at the time.

Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Exeter UK

Sorry General, I completely forgot to say how much I admired the amount of work you and your fellows had put in to the Victory in the Ages set. And I realise that every rules evolution will suck in peoples favourite mechanisms.

I also sat back and thought about things again last night. What is it that I DONT want to se in a set of NAPFOW rules. I think its the distraction that is always heaped upon the OOB and points systems. Do I want to play Naps for the competitive edge? Or do I want a fun game? I see Napoleonics as having a clearly identifiable army / corps / division / Brigade / Regiment / Battalion structure that I think any points system would find it very hard not to break (sorry again general - I couldn't get to the Army lists from the link on the warchiefs page so this is speculation in regard to any work you have put in on this aspect)

IF anyone could crack the algorithm that is the philosophers stone of rules thesedays then please share

I'll be happy to hear peoples views on all this and who knows, I may pull my finger out and do something in this direction myself (if I can pesuade the fellows at the club that it is a worthy cause!)

Marc

Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Cheltenham

Sorry to hear you couldn't get the link.

www.cheltenhamwarchiefs.co.uk incase you were reffered to old temp website URL.

Well to sum up my pts system I've taken the old pts which I still have a copy of for people to compare. Used the Prussians as the standard middle force and then worked other forces out from them either increasing or decreasing accordingly.

Then add the special rules and unit sizes and try to come to a compromise to make a competative list with the other lists but try and get it to stand out from the others.

The game at Crusade (Penarth) we had going was a 1000pt Prussian force against John's French that he had painted. He forgot to bring along 2 Line battalions and his General so it was an uneven game pts wise but superior french skill ( like Germans in FoW) allowed them to kill a fair amount of my stuff but eventually were beaten by a larger force.
It also helped that he was always the defender with two batteries to my one. Plus he had skirmishers which were a right handful.

If the game had been pts balanced the French Infantry would of been a great help. PLus we could have played some scenario's which would of allowed for a closer contest like in FoW as I find they help cancel out huge differences in troop quality allowing all forces to stand the chance of winning

Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Exeter UK

Thanks again General, but the link to the army lists is still broke! I did see your design notes though which I had missed before - I'll read those before progressing any further.

Prussians as Baseline for points - heartily agree, though since my two armies (neither painted) are Austrian and Ottoman I'm not sure I'm starting on a level playing field.

Your one very big advantage over me is that you can at least playtest what you come up with - it will be a very long time before I'm in that position and I'm guessing my enthusiasm may wane long before that happens Sad

anyway, plenty of food for thought

Cheers

Marc

Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Cheltenham

Why will it be so long?? thier is a Austrian list?

If you like send me an e-mail scottylaird@hotmail.com and I will sedn you the required docs. Army lists, summary sheets, Theater of war Peninsular for you too look at.

Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 55 Location: Newcastle Australia

Hi Expresidente, I and three mates, mainly pushed by me, use the CWC rules with some variations. The rules work although some of the wording was not clear at first. I like these rules because they allow for each battalion to be of a different size, 1 company (12 figures) up to 3 companies (36 figures) is usually the go, unlike in some other rule sets where every nation and every regiment having the same number of figures. This can show battle attrition or allow for 2 companies to be placed in the garden of La Haye Saint instead of 1 regiment.

The rules are made for brigade level combat and allows for fighting one area of a large battle such as La Hay Saint or one of the numerous smaller battles that lead up to the major conflict. Napoleonic war gaming looks good with a lot of figures and CWC allow for this.

I changed the terrain rules to resemble FoW more. See end of post.

Other things I have changed are the CWC army lists.
Light infantry are based on small FoW stands. This helps when you want to use your attachment light infantry to provide a skirmish screen, they cover more of your Line battalion and it looks better.
The points for the light infantry were worked out with the help of a computer engineer who took into account that now they were twice as many stands in a company for combat and firing.
Conscript double CWC points plus 10%
Trained double CWC points plus 15%
Veteran double CWC points plus 20%

I also changed the number of stands to a cavalry squadron. Like infantry regiments cavalry regiments when on campaign were very rarely up to full strength so I using France as the datum I worked out the squadrons strengths.
French heavy and medium cavalry regiment, use 4 figures per large stands and 3 stands to a squadron.
French Light cavalry regiment use 3 figures to a large stand and 4 stands to a squadron.
Austria uses the French basing system.
Bavaria and other nations with smaller regiments use 2 stands of 4 figures per squadron for heavy and medium cavalry and 3 stands of 3 figures for Light cavalry.
Russian regiments use 2 stands of 4 figures per squadron for heavy and medium cavalry and 3 stands of 3 figures for Light cavalry.

Points were also changed to reflect the bigger unit.

The other thing I did was I increase the size of the company for Austria and Russia from 2 stands to 3 stands as these two nations had larger battalions than most other nations and reduce to British company from 2 stands to 1 stand but with the British instead of ‘buy’ 1 company you must take them in multiple of 2 companies ie 2, 4 or 6.

Expresidente, my army is also Austrian and the playing field is level depending on your generalship.

Terrain:

Battles can often be won by just the deployment of troops and the use of terrain to help your battle plan. In The Thin Red Line terrain also has an important part in the outcome of games.

Terrain offers 2 effects to armies during a battle
1. Troops wishing to move through terrain suffer from having to slow down their advance to clamber over difficult ground and find away thorough thick forest to reach the enemy.
2. Terrain can offer cover and protection for advancing troops and can mask possible movement from enemy troops for surprise attacks.

There are three categories of terrain that units can encounter: Open-country, Rough Terrain and Impassable

Open country
Terrain that is rated as open country is basically level and gentle enough so that troops can cross it without much difficulty. It could be grassy or barren fields, expanses of firmly packed desert or farmland.

Rough Terrain
This terrain will limit the speed which cavalry and artillery can move. Rough terrain is likely to cause artillery to ‘bog down’ getting stuck in the mud or trapped on an obstruction. Rough terrain is rated as either difficult going or very difficult going.

Difficult going
Artillery attempting to move through this terrain must slow down or risk getting stuck. Obstacles such as shallow ditches, low walls and hedges are also difficult going.

Very difficult going
Buildings, swamp and dense woodlands are all very difficult going, as are obstacles such as banked hedge rows, drainage ditches and streams.
Foot soldiers in Line or Loose formations simply scramble around or over obstacles.

Impassable terrain
Some terrain is just so difficult it is impossible to cross, such as deep rivers, fetid swamps or cliffs. Impassable terrain stops all movement.

Linear obstacles
Some terrain features like hedges, walls and streams form a line running from one point to another. A unit can be on one side or the other but never actually in them.
Low walls and fences do not block line of sight and non skirmishing units behind these can be shot at using the shooting rules. Firer must be able to trace LoS to centre of targeted stand.
Hedges, hedgerows and high walls block line of sight.
Rivers are impassable unless by bridge or ford. Firer receives a +1 to hit against troops crossing as they are vulnerable. Troops moving over rivers via bridge must be in column formation.
Fords are passable sections of rivers or streams and slow down movement for artillery. Artillery move at half rate.
Infantry crossing at a ford must do so in column formation. Firer receives a +1 to hit against troops crossing as they are vulnerable.

Area Terrain
Terrain that occupies a large area on the table such as woodland swamps or snow is often represented by area terrain. Troops traversing through area terrain such as woodlands suffer from Disorientation. Troops positioned (hidden) in woodlands are not ‘disorientated’ until they move.

Infantry moving through Rough Terrain
Unlike artillery and cavalry, troops on foot can go just about anywhere. They can cross almost any obstacle and make their way through all but the most impassable terrain. Infantry companies in Line or Loose formations never become bogged down and do not need to take bogging checks regardless of the terrain encountered. They generally move at the same rate on roads, over open country and rough terrain. Units can not move at the double in Rough Terrain. Troops not in ‘Loose Formation’ become disorientated when moving through Rough Terrain.

Difficult Going
Gun crews have even more trouble handling their guns across rough terrain. All gun crews must pass a bogging check to cross Rough Terrain. Difficult going is the bane of all artillery teams. All cavalry, artillery and infantry in column formations must slow down to keep unit cohesion. All cavalry, artillery and infantry in column formation reduce their movement rate by 2”.
Artillery need to take a bogging check for crossing Difficult Going, roll a D6 die
On a roll of 2+ the team continues moving without any problems.
A roll of 1 means that the artillery team has Bogged Down and may not move any further until it is freed.

Very Difficult Going
While gunners can move their guns through some obstacles, they simply can’t move through very difficult going at all. All artillery may not attempt to cross ‘Very difficult going’ terrain. However, artillery may begin the game in ‘Very difficult going’ terrain - their crews having spent the time to haul them into position before the battle begins. Once there they cannot move since it will take just as many hours to haul them out again.
All cavalry and infantry in column formation must slow down to keep unit cohesion. All cavalry and infantry in column formation reduce their movement rate by 2”.
Cavalry needs to take a bogging check for crossing Very Difficult Going, roll a D6 die
On a roll of 2+ the cavalry continues moving without any problems.
A roll of 1 means that the cavalry has Bogged Down and may not move any further until it is freed.

Cover: Cover comprises features such as walls, ditches, or other features that offer some form of real physical protection or hedges and woodlands which offer flimsy protection.
To claim protection from linear cover that cover must lay between the target and firer, and the target must be within 1" of the cover. If the firer and the target are both within 1" of the cover it is effectively cancelled out.
Troops at windows and doors count as behind cover from outside fire.

Hidden units: Troops can be hidden in buildings, woodlands, behind linear obstacles, such as hedgerows and high walls, crop fields, and depressions in the ground such as gullies or sunken roads and fortifications.
Visibility in the woodlands is limited to 5” because of the vegetation; troops inside the woodlands cannot be seen at all from outside unless they disclose their position by shooting. However, they can see just as far looking from the edge as they could in the open. The wood itself is of course visible, so can be fired on by artillery even if the presence of enemy troops is only suspected.
Troops surprised by hidden troops become disorientated.
Hidden troops are automatically located if a unit moves to within 1” of the cover that is hiding them.

Hidden troops can be located by rolling a Skills Check if within 3” of a terrain feature that could hide troops.

Quality D6 needed
Conscript 5+
Trained 4+
Veteran 3+

Shooting from in-cover and from within woodlands: Soldiers who are behind cover are not restricted in what they can see or fire at. In woodlands visibility and all firing ranges are reduced to a maximum of 5".

Hills are probably the most significant terrain feature on any battlefield, blocking the view of any battalion on lower ground while affording those atop them an enhanced view of the surrounding terrain.

TERRAIN TABLE
This table lists some of the more common types of terrain found on the battlefield of the world and how they are normally rated.

Terrain Category Line of sight (LoS)
Vegetation
Field, grassland or steppe Open-country Does not block LoS
Standing crops or open scrub Open-country Does not block LoS
Woodlands:
Thickets, Orchards, Olive groves or vineyards are features covering an area of 6”-12” x 6”-24”
Difficult Blocks LoS
Woods are larger features covering an area of 12” - 36” x 24” - 48” Very Difficult Blocks LoS

Hedges, Walls and Embankments
Hedges, walls or line of trees Difficult Blocks LoS
A line of trees block line of sight for the observers unless they are within 4” of the trees.
Banked hedgerows or Bocage Very difficult Blocks LoS
Banked hedgerows or Bocage is impassable to infantry in column, all cavalry and artillery.
Infantry in line formation reduce their movement rate by 2”.
Hedgerows are so overgrown that battalions must start their movement adjacent to a Bocage hedgerow to cross it, and must stop their movement on reaching a Bocage or banked hedgerow. Battalion companies can not end a turn sitting on a hedgerow. They must be on one side or the other.
Low embankment Difficult Blocks LoS
Steep embankment Very Difficult Blocks LoS

Rocks and Hills
Rocky ground Difficult Does not block LoS
Hills:
Knolls are small features covering an area of not more than 12” x 12” and 1” – 2” high Open-country Blocks LoS
Hillocks are features covering an area of 12” - 24” x 12” - 24” and 1” – 3” high Difficult Blocks LoS
Hills are larger features covering an area of 12” - 36” x 24” - 48” and 1” – 3” high Very Difficult Blocks LoS
Cliff Impassable Blocks LoS

Sand, Snow and Mud
Flat, hard desert Open-country Does not block LoS
Firm sand or thin snow Open-country Does not block LoS
Soft sand, dunes, deep snow or mud Difficult Does not block LoS

Water features
Marsh, bog, creek Difficult Does not block LoS
Stream, drainage ditch, shallow river Very Difficult Does not block LoS
Wadi, Balka, ravine or gully Very Difficult Does not block LoS
Deep river, swamp or lake Impassable Does not block LoS

Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Cheltenham

I am glad people are enjoying our changes to the original ruleset we gained off this website.

But as you've seen the rules are not a complete set but more of a guide line with room of change to exacting historical notes or "in house" rules

So I am glad to see you have filled the terrain gap we found to a better degree than we did. Like i say we only wrote up a stop gap for ourselfs.

And I am gald to see you have ajusted the rules to be more correct as we at the CWC aren't the most... historically accurate or knowledgeable boys on Napoleonics.

Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Exeter UK

Hi Figgy - you and your friends certainly have been busy but both you and the CWC have an advantage over me in that I am working on this alone - in fact that is also untrue - I've rather lost impetus, plans are all awry.

Mind you, what you have got together here is certainly evolving nicely and please keep up the good work.

A number of other Nappy rules have come out recently - Black Powder, Lasalle, the set from the League of Augsburg - all indicating a resurgence in the period (as the dearth of new figures also attests to). From a distance Lasalle looks very similar to FoW and may be worth a look.

One day I will come back to this and find all the hard work done - so many thanks in advance. But who knows, I may just be thinking about it again....

Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 117 Location: Cheltenham

I hope you don't mind but since you've done such sterling work on fixing some of the loose rules we did I have added them to the latest Errata document for people to implement if they wish.

Available to download now.